Discussion Rules
Introduction is a site where the members attempt to index the statistics of characters across different fictional franchises. This leads to much discussion about certain feats, statements and calcs, about their validity, reliability, etcetera. However, certain topics keep popping up repeatedly, generally made by new members, despite being discussed and resolved multiple times in the past. The managing staff has grown weary continuously settling the more controversial issues to rest again and again, and hence have listed a few rules, to limit redundant discussions. The listed rules are to be followed for discussions ( ), in addition to the site rules. General Rules *In the profile talk pages, please sign with your username at the end of your posts, by adding four "~" signs. *Before starting to argue in the forums, please read the logical fallacies page. *First check if a certain topic has been handled previously. Since the search function does not work properly yet (the Fandom staff are trying to fix it), you can visit the profile page of a concerned specific character, or verse/franchise/fiction, and check the "See more discussions" link at the bottom right corner of the page for tagged related topics. This usually works more easily. *Building upon the previous suggestion, make sure to add topics for the "verse" and main characters related to your forum threads, in order to make it easier for other members to find them later on. *Only add topics that are directly relevant to the discussion threads. This includes the names of verses and characters for which revisions are being argued about. However, do not add mostly unrelated topics, such as for instruction or policy pages, unless the contents of the pages themselves are being discussed. Otherwise it will get hard to find important older discussions for each particular subject. Click here for further information. *When arguing for changing character statistics, do not assume that the staff will have in-depth knowledge about the fictional franchise in question. Make sure to explain your suggestions in a structured manner that is easy to comprehend. You will not be allowed to change any statistics if people cannot understand what you mean. *To reiterate, when creating content revision threads, it is best to keep your suggestions as structured and simple to understand as possible, so the staff will have an easier time evaluating the text. Avoid writing upgrade threads mainly based on assumptions from a limited amount of information, with no additional context or evidence to support them. *Before making sweeping or significant changes to characters or verse pages, please start a thread in the Content Revision forum first, so that the suggestions may be evaluated by the Staff and the community at large, to ensure that they are acceptable. The concluding evaluations must be handled by Discussion Moderators, Administrators, or Bureaucrats, who should make an effort to base their evaluations on valid arguments, not personal opinions. *Content Revision Threads need to be supported by scans, quotes, video clips, accepted calculations, or any other direct proof that claimed events actually happened in the source material. In the absence of this evidence, CRTs may be closed without notice. *To get better input in a content revision thread, inspect the Knowledgeable Members List for people who know much about a franchise, and leave polite notices on their message walls that ask them to participate in the discussion. *Don't repeatedly quote each other back-and-forth within the forums or message walls. This easily creates a long line of massive posts that make the threads nearly unreadable. *Generally try to avoid derailing content revision discussion threads from the original topic, We cannot deal with too many different subjects at once, so it is usually better to start a new thread instead. *The edit sessions generally expire after about 20 minutes, and there are occasional Fandom bugs for briefer periods of time as well, so if you write very long posts, please remember to first copy and save them in a separate text editing program, so they do not disappear after your hard work writing them. *Wiki members who are not a part of the staff should not attempt to close threads, as doing so will only result in that it is removed from public view instead. *Please refrain from using the script unnecessarily, as it tends to derail and cause confusion. It should only be used in the Fun and Games forum, and even then only sparsely. *Please do not bump topics that have been inactive for over 3 months without a legitimate argument, and entirely avoid bumping topics that have been concluded. However, we make exceptions for versus threads. *Please avoid creating image-sharing threads featuring characters that you find attractive. This is because they often lead from friendly fun to sexualized drawings of minors or otherwise get out of hand into NSFW areas. *If there exist conflicting accepted calculations for the same feat, the calc group members should discuss which ones that are most reliable to use in their own forum. The calc group is free to ask for relevant information from reliable members, by using the Knowledgeable Members List or the associated verse page list of supporters. After a decision thas been reached, and the most reliable calculations have been selected, a discussion should be started in the content revision forum to decide which characters that should scale to the feats. *We changed the tiering system after a long discussion among all of the regular users in this wiki, since it makes better logical sense, and uses a far greater scale, than the old one. It is not acceptable for new users to come here just to demand that we change it back. We are not going to do so, and they will have to accept and attempt to understand our current system. Franchise-Specific Rules Dragon Ball Rules *Do not attempt to change the current Dragon Ball cosmology and power ratings without new evidence from an ongoing manga or anime series. We have heard all of the arguments many times before, and are so exhausted of constantly dealing with those topics that bringing them up recurrently leads to nowhere, with the discussion threads being oftentimes closed immediately. *Given that the only explicit gauges that we have to scale the tiers by are from Frieza's first form, and Super Perfect Cell, we had to estimate roughly where in-between that all of the characters would fit during these time periods, as this was the least bad available option. We have spent a massive amount of time arguing about this, and are not willing to waste any more further rearranging the statistics. *Also, do not ask why we placed Buu saga DBZ characters in the same tier as Super Perfect Cell. The upper border of this tier is roughly a trillion times higher than the bottom, so an upgrade through mere powerscaling alone is impossible. *Do not create discussion threads trying to upgrade the Z Anime and GT characters based on Super Buu crashing the universe by breaking the walls between dimensions with his Vice Shout as it was discussed and debunked countless times. *Do not make threads about Skinny Buu not being scaled to Goku. After his fight with Basil, he fought against a casual suppressed Goku, but he quickly lost this form and started to sleep again. All of this points to a gag routine and not serious feats. *Please do not create discussion threads about the Dragon Ball Super characters being upgraded to 3-A based on Base Goku's revision, as the topic has been discussed to exhaustion at this point and every thread tends to be a repeat of the last one. The characters who became Universal have demonstrated legitimate scaling to be upgraded, while the characters who didn't have not. Failure to adhere to this rule will result in the thread being locked. *Do not create discussion threads trying to upgrade Vegito to Low 2-C via scaling from Kefla or Infinite Zamasu. This topic has been discussed to the point of becoming tiresome and monotonous. Vegito has no indication of scaling to either and the proposal would be unfounded without further proof. *Do not attempt to upgrade the speed of Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse characters to infinite or immeasurable, as this has been discussed several times before, and has been deemed a misinterpretation of the actual events. The characters have been clearly affected by the flow of time before, and most feats suggesting such a speed are vague and can be interpreted as simple time travel, or time manipulation. Bleach Rules *Regarding Yhwach from Bleach, there have been statements in some chapters misusing the term omnipotence and omniscience (Quite common in fiction). Please note that the franchise will NOT be upgraded to Tier 2 or above under any circumstances. *Also, please do not try use Gin Ichimaru's supposed Bankai speed to support a speed upgrade, as this discussion has grown tiresome from being repeatedly argued and debunked. Naruto Rules *Please refrain from attempting to upgrade the regular statistics of Kaguya and Momoshiki to Star level or above. It was decided that Kaguya should not be granted durability or attack potency comparable to her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball for her casual attacks, as the only scene wherein this rating would be warranted is strife with Plot-Induced Stupidity. Insistence of this will be unappreciated. *The Naruto databook descriptions should only be used on a case-by-case basis, depending on if the sources are consistent with the manga or are questionable hyperbole. *Please do not attempt to upgrade the Truth Seeking Orbs from Naruto as being able to destroy Souls due to Minato's soul's lost arms. We have had several discussions, and even a Staff Discussion regarding the topic, that all reached the conclusion that the TSOs do not actually destroy the soul, but rather nullify the Edo Tensei Ninjutsu. One Piece Rules *Don't create threads to upgrade One Piece, based on Chinjao supposedly splitting an ice continent, until the story provides us with more evidence, and avoid using statements only to support it. JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Rules *Do not try to level up Johnny Joestar from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure to 2-A just because he "hits with the force of infinite universes". This is an extremely biased and contradicted interpretation of how his powers work. Also do not try to upgrade Giorno Giovanna beyond Low 2-C. He was placed where he is post consultation from DarkLK, who devised the tiering system in effect. Yu Yu Hakusho Rules *Don't attempt to upgrade S-class characters in Yu Yu Hakusho to planet busters, as this has also previously been discussed over and over and has turned redundant. To Aru Majutsu No Index Rules *Please avoid trying to upgrade To Aru characters to Tier 1-A or above, as this is also highly contradicted by other parts of this work of fiction. One-Punch Man Rules *Do NOT post any threads or comments about Saitama being limitless, omnipotent, or that "he is a gag character who is never meant to lose". This is an illogical line of reasoning that does not fit in with our system, employs a very liberal use of no-limits fallacy, and defeats the base purpose of indexing character statistics. Please note that due to the highly repetitive nature of this particular discussion, failure to follow this rule may result in a block without any particular warning. *Avoid trying to upgrade Saitama to Star level based on statements from the databook. It has been discussed repeatedly that there are two translations for the Japanese word 星 (Hoshi). It can mean either Planet or Star, and the former is far more consistent with the events of the story and Saitama's own statements. Toriko Rules *Do not attempt to upgrade the Toriko character Acacia/Neo to Multi-Galaxy level, based on an Outlier that contradicts every other established feat from the main cast. Demonbane Rules *Don't argue about Elder God Demonbane being "beyond omnipotence". For one thing, that is not conceptually possible, and for another, it is still dependent on using the sleeping Azathoth as a power source. We are not going to change its tier. Medaka Box Rules *Do not try to upgrade or set specific tiers to Ajimu Najimi or Hanten Shiranui from Medaka Box. Given that they come from a metafictional parody manga, that mostly revolves around deconstructing, circumventing, dissecting, and exaggerating plot conveniences, and does not remotely make sense from a power-scaling perspective, their statistics are too hard to gauge. For the same reasons, also avoid using them in serious match-up threads. See here for an example. Bastard!! Rules *Do not argue for upgrading Bastard!! characters to be 4-Dimensional, or above. This has been previously handled here, and here. Also, do not argue for upgrading its high tiers to 3-A without solid new evidence. Note that this scan is not sufficient proof to upgrade any of the cast to 3-A, as it was already looked over, discussed, and debunked here, here, and here. DC Comics Rules *Do not attempt to upgrade The Presence/Yahweh from DC Comics to tier 0, simply because he is stated to be omnipotent and is the verse's depiction of the monotheistic god. This topic has been discussed extensively in the past, and it has been concluded that the Presence has shown far too many limitations (Such as equals or near equals in power in Elaine Belloc and The Great Evil Beast, stating that he was created by human imagination, being mere fiction to Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, being severely damaged by Gabriel Hornblower, and being healed by Michael Demiurgos) to be ranked as anything beyond his 1-A rating. Also keep in mind that statements of omnipotence are never accepted as proof. Marvel Comics Rules *Please avoid making threads to upgrade Marvel or DC Comics characters based on scaling to other characters that they are usually not connected to. For more information read our Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics. *Do not attempt to upgrade Dormammu, Umar, Eternity, and all of the other Marvel Comics cosmic entities to tier 1-A, based on a single mention within the 2005 "Defenders" series, given that it would enormously contradict virtually everything else known about the characters. In addition, a 1-A fictional environment does not remotely automatically translate to the nature of any characters present within it, or plenty of much weaker characters would qualify as well. *Also do not attempt to upgrade Galactus to 1-A, based on "Spider-Man and the Secret Wars". The story is not a part of continuity any more than "Avengers and the Infinity Gauntlet" or "Captain America and the Korvac Saga", which were released in conjunction, as part of the same imprint. In addition, if you read the entire comicbook, rather than an out-of-context scan, you clearly see that the Enchantress is not referring to Galactus being beyond all concepts of dimensions of time and space altogether, but about his infinite real size compared to the cosmos, how he can affect lots of different aspects of existence with his reality-warping powers, and since she and Spider-Man are strictly physical entities, they only perceive a small part of his entire being. See here for more information. It would also contradict everything else that we know about Galactus. *Do not attempt to scale base Thanos from the Phoenix Force, Galactus, the Celestials, and Odinforce Thor, based on 2016 and 2017 storylines within his own comicbook series. These are fairly typical extreme Plot-Induced Stupidity outliers. Within the same story, the Silver Surfer was also treated as a threat, and the Hulk survived Thanos' attacks, whereas Galactus did not. We have to attempt to find a certain degree of historical consistency to scale from, even if the Marvel writers recurrently make such a task near impossible to accomplish. Marvel Cinematic Universe Rules *Do not make Marvel Cinematic Universe revision threads discussing scaling Captain America to Iron Man from their fight in the "Civil War" movie, as this has been discussed many times before, and strongly contradicts the established scale of their respective feats. Super Smash Bros. Rules *Please do not attempt to establish Super Smash Bros. as canon in any way for the involved franchises. It completely fails to fulfill our canon crossovers requirements, as it obviously lacks sufficient solid interactions and references to the events in many of the canons to fit into their established continuities. To consider it as canon would require a great deal of assumptions to the point of borderline fanfiction. For further information, see here, here and here. Super Mario Bros Rules *Please refrain from upgrading Mario and Luigi to Dreamy Bowser and/or the Zeekeeper. The Super Mario Bros franchise has wildly varying statistics and feats across different games, which make powerscaling characters already difficult. Given that this is the second 2-B feat in the entire series, it is generally considered as an outlier. Sonic the Hedgehog Rules *Please refrain from upgrading Sonic and the other characters to 5-B or 5-A based on him harming Chaos and Dark Gaia as these events were analyzed, discussed and debunked countless times. Kirby Rules *Do not attempt to downgrade the Kirby characters without new evidence and arguments. Among other things, we have discussed the issue here, here, and here. Bayonetta Rules *Do not attempt to upgrade Bayonetta to universe level. We have talked extensively about this topic here, here, here, and here. Kingdom Hearts Rules *Please do not attempt to downgrade Kingdom Hearts on the basis of Xemnas' boss fight and subsequent skyscraper throwing. Logic and scaling through the lore is a far better indicator of the series' overall power, as like many RPGs, the vast majority of events lack direct physical destruction or area of effect. Final Fantasy Rules *Please avoid creating content revision threads questioning the legitimacy of Sephiroth's supernova feat. It has been discussed several times and accepted as valid. This does not include any future revisions after the Final Fantasy VII remake. Pokémon Rules *Do not try to upgrade any Pokémon trainers, even the strongest and most skilled, to 2-C or 2-B based on them keeping up with the Creation Trio. This has been deemed inaccurate on the basis of Game Mechanics and Plot-Induced Stupidity, and it greatly contradicts what the lore has established. Digimon Rules *The databook entries in Digimon are an exception to the rule as they are primary canon and well woven into the franchise. There is even lore behind the creation in the book in that it is a research book made by interdimensional researchers and as such they are heavily considered when discussing abilities and other information. Avatar: The Last Airbender Rules *Do not attempt to downgrade Avatar characters speeds as the characters were shown to normally master and react to natural lightning. My Little Pony Rules *The My Little Pony comicbooks are not considered to automatically be a part of the TV show's canon continuity. Here is a statement by IDW editor Bobby Curnow regarding that the comics are not canon to the TV show. And here is another statement from the TV show co-director Jim Miller that he has not read the comics yet, and after doing a bit of reading he stated that the comics and the show are separate. The two mediums also constantly contradict each other to great degrees, including for King Sombra and The Dazzlings, which makes them impossible to reconcile as part of the exact same continuity. It would be very against our standard conventions, regardless of comments from the TV show's creators. However, if events involving actual characters from a story or arc in the comics are directly referenced as having happened in the show, then that particular part is clearly canon. As such, the "Legends of Magic" comic series is considered canon to the cartoon due to the show referencing events that occured in the series months before they aired on the cartoon itself, which fulfills this rule. Star Wars Rules *Please do not make content revision threads attempting to upgrade Darth Vader (Star Wars Legends continuity) to Tier 4 based on Word of God that he is 80% as powerful as Darth Sidious. This has been brought up numerous times (these threads just being two examples), but has been rejected every time by staff members and even trusted non-staff members who are knowledgeable when it comes to Star Wars Legends lore as this statement was given by George Lucas to standalone Vanity Fair article and was explicitly his own opinion, which does not take into account the events of Dark Empire. Also, please do not make content revision threads attempting to upgrade Darth Vader (and other Star Wars Legends characters who scale from him) to Tier 4 based on him surviving for a short while after a few seconds of exposure to Force Lightning from Darth Sidious. This, too, has been brought up and rejected. Other Rules *Site Rules *Editing Rules *Versus Thread Rules *Chat Rules Category:Important Category:Administration